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  4. Hi, I'm Susanna Hecht. I'm the Director of
  5. the Brazil Center at UCLA and also a
  6. Professor in the Luskin School of
  7. Public Affairs. One of the problems that
  8. occurs with Amazonian issues is that
  9. there are real questions about the
  10. development model that increasingly
  11. moves into export-led development: highly
  12. industrialized forms of development, such
  13. as agroindustry, associated with soy and
  14. corn, the questions of oil, mining, and so
  15. on, and we'll talk further about what the
  16. implications of these are. But, what's
  17. important to understand is that the
  18. economy shifts to an emphasis on
  19. extractive products linked primarily to
  20. international
  21. markets for
  22. soybean and beef, and these have enormous
  23. implications for large-scale
  24. deforestation. The other thing is that
  25. these are importantly linked to
  26. infrastructure expansion and the
  27. speculation that goes with this. So, one
  28. of the things that's important about
  29. this is that as infrastructure expands,
  30. particularly roads, so does deforestation,
  31. and what is characteristic about this is
  32. that a lot of those roads are informal
  33. roads and that most deforestation —
  34. something like 90% of it — occurs within
  35. 10 kilometers of a road. So, the expansion
  36. of roads for agroindustrial and other
  37. kinds of activities is also a major
  38. dynamic of
  39. deforestation. And this has been sort of
  40. a classic thing that one sees, which is
  41. that when you start to put in roads, you
  42. get a lot of deforestation that follows
  43. it and a lot of trunk roads that come on.
  44. One of the dominant land uses of these
  45. cleared areas is for livestock, and it is
  46. the main driver of deforestation. There's
  47. a lot of discussion about this as being
  48. primarily driven by markets, but it's
  49. driven by a lot of other things. First of
  50. all, it's mostly highly subsidized. Second
  51. of all, it's got flexibility that
  52. industrial agriculture doesn't. You don't
  53. have to harvest on a particular date.
  54. You can walk the animal somewhere else.
  55. The other thing is it makes other forms
  56. of land use kind of impossible.
  57. Forest dwellers cannot use pasture —
  58. cows use pasture. Second, and another
  59. thing that's important is it's a great
  60. way to cheaply speculate on land. The
  61. costs of putting in cattle are expensive,
  62. but it's nothing compared to putting in
  63. agroindustrial things, and it's also a
  64. means of showing what's called
  65. "effective use." So, effective use means
  66. that you actually end up having rights
  67. to be able to claim these lands because
  68. you've shown that it's not some useless
  69. silly forest, but rather an important
  70. livestock enterprise. Also there's the
  71. whole symbolism and iconography of
  72. livestock and livestock cultures as
  73. being sort of masculinist, not those,
  74. you know, icky forests, and also,
  75. you know, it's that Marlboro Man kind of
  76. thing. But it has a number of logics, both
  77. for large and small holders, linked to
  78. its ability to create assets of land to
  79. claim land and its flexibility and
  80. finally, it's low labor. So, if you think
  81. about it, what we're beginning to see is
  82. an Amazonia in which large scale
  83. agriculture and large scale livestock, as
  84. well as petroleum and other things, are
  85. not absorbing labor, but they are
  86. expanding exports. The expansion of
  87. livestock has grown exponentially in
  88. Amazonia. It's a simplified landscape, a
  89. modernist landscape,
  90. universalized and easily implemented.
  91. It's deeply capitalized, but importantly,
  92. it's exclusionary. So, if we start to look
  93. at agribusiness, not through just the
  94. commodity itself, but its structural
  95. implications, we begin to see that this
  96. is a really kind of problematic form
  97. of development, and particularly
  98. the
  99. agroindustry, elements of it involve
  100. essentially mechanized agriculture, which
  101. absorbs very very little labor. It often
  102. takes over areas that have been cattle,
  103. and keeps pushing the cattle frontier
  104. forward. If you want to take a look at
  105. global demand for things like beef, what
  106. you see is that there is a lot of
  107. international demand. If you want to look
  108. at where most of the clearing occurs, it
  109. occurs now on public lands and
  110. increasingly, through occupation of
  111. Indigenous lands. So, in essence, what's
  112. happening is that we are beginning to
  113. see the expansion of a frontier that
  114. pushes livestock forward at the same
  115. time that it begins to expand
  116. agriculture. What you can see is that
  117. with the dominant export element here,
  118. the dominant market is Asian, and you can
  119. see also that it's rapidly expanding.
  120. The agroindustry areas are increasing
  121. inequality. They're the areas of
  122. increasing
  123. deforestation, and even as the value
  124. of these things go up, what you see is
  125. the share of small farm income
  126. collapses from, let's say 1995 to
  127. 2017, goes from 50% of the agricultural
  128. income
  129. to a mere 20%. So, tenurial regimes,
  130. marketing, institutional issues, rents, and
  131. capitalization and infrastructure for
  132. large commodities are pushing large scale,
  133. non-labor absorbing, export-led, mostly,
  134. development, while urban development has
  135. to absorb an increasing portion of
  136. Amazonians, and that the rural areas in
  137. terms of many kinds of activities become
  138. no longer viable for small scale holders.
  139. So, in this chapter we've kind of covered
  140. a major shift in emphasis with an
  141. expansion of inequality, this sort of
  142. undermining of other options, labor-absorbing
  143. options in industry and
  144. manufacturing through the China shock,
  145. but at the same time the expansion of
  146. export markets, including to China. After
  147. all China is the largest trading
  148. partner with Amazonian countries, so we
  149. begin to see a shift from a kind of
  150. internal interest in development into a
  151. very strong export-led model that of
  152. course has been true throughout
  153. Brazilian history and Amazonian history
  154. since contact. What's also important to
  155. realize is that we begin to see the rise
  156. of non-labor absorbing petrol-hydrocarbon
  157. development, non-labor absorbing cattle, but
  158. which has lots of other benefits in
  159. terms of creating assets. There's access
  160. to credit that stimulates infrastructure
  161. and so on, which also stimulates
  162. speculation and clearing. Within the soy
  163. and agroindustry sector, what you
  164. begin to see is enormous access to
  165. credit and
  166. financialization. Again, it links up to
  167. infrastructure expansion and its
  168. associated deforestation, and also as it
  169. becomes regulated, it starts to seek out
  170. areas with less regulation. So, it kind of
  171. goes to frontiers, and it also goes into
  172. other Amazonian countries that have less
  173. developed regulatory apparatuses
  174. compared to the Brazilian case, that
  175. there's big shifts, and that actually, an
  176. unusual labor absorbing dynamic occurs.
  177. Part of this is urbanization, but part of
  178. it is also clandestine economies.
  179. End of transcript. Skip to the start.